Re: Carbon fiber alternatives
seth sheckartze
Description
Collection
Title:
Re: Carbon fiber alternatives
Creator:
seth sheckartze
Date:
12/9/2014
Text:
in regards to my question on basalt fiber i have included all answers other
than solicitations at the bottom i have created a short summary. thanks for
the interest
seth
That is all I use... I definitely don't have the same irritation
Weight is abt the same, however the socket is more flexible....which
doesn't necessarily mean it is weaker. They claim it's actually stronger.
It is less irritating to the skin. However, it does not come out the same
color as carbon, has a sort of gold tint to it. I use it in all my sockets
except when I'm doing an all carbon socket bc of the color reason.
Hello. I have used both the Coyote composite which you're interested in, as
well as the FabTech synthetic fibers. Both reduce itch tremendously, but I
prefer the FabTech due to weight, wetting out, and the final finish. Also,
you have options of white or black fabric. Finishing the edges during
grinding is trickier than carbon, but once you've got the hang of it, you
should really enjoy it. I now only use carbon for reinforcement around
distal attachments and along sides for increased rigidity if needed/wanted.
FYI, I use the FabTech resin for lamination. Hope this helps. I just used
it for an AK layup on a patient weighing almost 400#. Was a very HD layup
so I can't say it was light, but seemed as stiff to me even at that
circumference as carbon would have. I know my tech likes to work with it in
regard to having less irritation. He also said it was less particle-like in
that the strands that came off of the braid didn't seem to float in the air
like carbon does (almost like it sticks to itself a bit). It won't stretch
as far as carbon so make sure you get the braid slightly larger if in
doubt. The 10 braid worked well for a cast that was 35 proximal
circumference, but that's about as big as I'd go. It is a bit harder to
grind, but if you treat it like leather and use a sharp sanding cone/drum
and don't let it get too warm (the fibers seem to cut/grind better when it
doen'st get too hot) the finished product is nice looking. Thebasalt kind
of has a gold-ish tint to it depending on the light. My big AK has been
walking all over on it and it is holding up very well after the first few
weeks here. Coyote helped him out quite a bit when he first used it with
lamination questions, etc so feel free to lean on them for tech support
too. Any other questions please let me know, good luck! -Ryan
I've used basalt and found it to be slightly less irritating and easier to
smooth edges by wet sanding by hand. I was urged to try it during a
promotion by a supplier that carries it and they stated that it was
interchangeable with straight carbon fiber in terms of strength. After
fitting a whole roll worth of sockets I learned from a colleague who
attended a continuing education conference that the manufacturer still
recommends reinforcing all attachments with carbon tape because it is
stronger than basalt alone leading me to believe that there must be some
concerns about fittings delaminating under stress. So far I have not
experienced any failure problems but I am a little put off by the fact that
I was misled by the third party supplier regarding strength. You would have
to check with basalt manufacturers to confirm their recommendations. I will
also say that it tends to absorb more resin and to be slightly thicker as a
result. Hope this helps. For now I am back to straight carbon fiber braid.
We've used the coyote alternative in combination with PRS' ER resin and it
really isn't too bad. Things to take into consideration… It is more
flexible than carbon(so requires a thicker layup.
It does not itch as bad, but it still does itch. Requires a carbon tape
reinforcement onto distal attachment. Otherwise the lock or plate will
click.
The resin and carbon combo can be heat relieved... Carefully. In our
experience it does not finish as well at trim lines. It may require a
socket trim or a really good wet sanding. Lastly, the sheen is a little
green without pigment. Overall I like the combo. Please send out responses
from others. I'd like to hear others opinions.
When compared to E Glass, basalt fiber is about 5-10% more dense/heavy
than 12K E-glass and heavy on the fiber bundles. (fibers that are wound to
make the braid) Gold-ish brown in color.
Basalt filaments are about 5-10% stronger than fiberglass filaments, but
here’s the kicker, they are very fragile; so any crimp from weaving or
spreading knocks down any strength improvements, usually resulting in a
10-15% reduction in strength in a comparable woven fabric or braid.
We have found no advantage unless you are building something that sees
2000F.
Yes, it is less of an irritant due to the min 9 micron size Synthex fiber
has same feature.
When you say stiffness, I assume you are comparing to carbon? The way O&P
laminates carbon composites our devices end up very resin heavy, stiff and
brittle. Really too ridged.
Basalt, is more in line with E-Glass and Synthex fiber falls in the middle
of E-Glass and Carbon. The goal with these materials is to NOT create an
overly ridged socket like carbon, but something that performs like a PP/CP
plastic socket with the toughness of a composite. These are more
comfortable for the patient and perform well. They will appear less ridged
than carbon but that is a good thing!
I haven’t used, but I have been in many facilities that utilize it. It does
what Coyote claims
I have tried several laminations with varying results. My main issue was
the weight of the braid which clearly is not a material issue. However, the
fibres did seem to absorb lots of resin yet not 'pack down' like carbon
does so well, creating in my opinion a heavier than necessary socket wall.
On a couple of laminations where I removed more resin the fibres became
starved and the edges didn't finish well. I've told my my supplier that I'm
keen to keep investigating but I want a finer braid and also unidirectional
tapes. In terms of irritation it did seem to be better, but hard to say as
I use lots of PPE when using carbon to avoid such issues.
Could you please post your responses as I'd be very interested to hear of
others' experiences.
Is that you calling out from the holy land!? I would like to be in touch
with you. please confirm my assumptions. Thanks & all the best!
summary
it is somewhat less irritating. it is more flexible than carbon but not
significantly weaker one might use more layers to compensate for lack of
rigidity, but that might increase weight
thanks to all the respondents
Seth Sheckartze CPO
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 4:22 PM, seth sheckartze < <Email Address Redacted> >
wrote:
> I'm looking into basalt fibers has any one used them is it true there is
> no irritation as advertised by coyote design and how does it compare in
> regards to weight and stiffness
> Thanks
> Seth Sheckartze CPO
>
than solicitations at the bottom i have created a short summary. thanks for
the interest
seth
That is all I use... I definitely don't have the same irritation
Weight is abt the same, however the socket is more flexible....which
doesn't necessarily mean it is weaker. They claim it's actually stronger.
It is less irritating to the skin. However, it does not come out the same
color as carbon, has a sort of gold tint to it. I use it in all my sockets
except when I'm doing an all carbon socket bc of the color reason.
Hello. I have used both the Coyote composite which you're interested in, as
well as the FabTech synthetic fibers. Both reduce itch tremendously, but I
prefer the FabTech due to weight, wetting out, and the final finish. Also,
you have options of white or black fabric. Finishing the edges during
grinding is trickier than carbon, but once you've got the hang of it, you
should really enjoy it. I now only use carbon for reinforcement around
distal attachments and along sides for increased rigidity if needed/wanted.
FYI, I use the FabTech resin for lamination. Hope this helps. I just used
it for an AK layup on a patient weighing almost 400#. Was a very HD layup
so I can't say it was light, but seemed as stiff to me even at that
circumference as carbon would have. I know my tech likes to work with it in
regard to having less irritation. He also said it was less particle-like in
that the strands that came off of the braid didn't seem to float in the air
like carbon does (almost like it sticks to itself a bit). It won't stretch
as far as carbon so make sure you get the braid slightly larger if in
doubt. The 10 braid worked well for a cast that was 35 proximal
circumference, but that's about as big as I'd go. It is a bit harder to
grind, but if you treat it like leather and use a sharp sanding cone/drum
and don't let it get too warm (the fibers seem to cut/grind better when it
doen'st get too hot) the finished product is nice looking. Thebasalt kind
of has a gold-ish tint to it depending on the light. My big AK has been
walking all over on it and it is holding up very well after the first few
weeks here. Coyote helped him out quite a bit when he first used it with
lamination questions, etc so feel free to lean on them for tech support
too. Any other questions please let me know, good luck! -Ryan
I've used basalt and found it to be slightly less irritating and easier to
smooth edges by wet sanding by hand. I was urged to try it during a
promotion by a supplier that carries it and they stated that it was
interchangeable with straight carbon fiber in terms of strength. After
fitting a whole roll worth of sockets I learned from a colleague who
attended a continuing education conference that the manufacturer still
recommends reinforcing all attachments with carbon tape because it is
stronger than basalt alone leading me to believe that there must be some
concerns about fittings delaminating under stress. So far I have not
experienced any failure problems but I am a little put off by the fact that
I was misled by the third party supplier regarding strength. You would have
to check with basalt manufacturers to confirm their recommendations. I will
also say that it tends to absorb more resin and to be slightly thicker as a
result. Hope this helps. For now I am back to straight carbon fiber braid.
We've used the coyote alternative in combination with PRS' ER resin and it
really isn't too bad. Things to take into consideration… It is more
flexible than carbon(so requires a thicker layup.
It does not itch as bad, but it still does itch. Requires a carbon tape
reinforcement onto distal attachment. Otherwise the lock or plate will
click.
The resin and carbon combo can be heat relieved... Carefully. In our
experience it does not finish as well at trim lines. It may require a
socket trim or a really good wet sanding. Lastly, the sheen is a little
green without pigment. Overall I like the combo. Please send out responses
from others. I'd like to hear others opinions.
When compared to E Glass, basalt fiber is about 5-10% more dense/heavy
than 12K E-glass and heavy on the fiber bundles. (fibers that are wound to
make the braid) Gold-ish brown in color.
Basalt filaments are about 5-10% stronger than fiberglass filaments, but
here’s the kicker, they are very fragile; so any crimp from weaving or
spreading knocks down any strength improvements, usually resulting in a
10-15% reduction in strength in a comparable woven fabric or braid.
We have found no advantage unless you are building something that sees
2000F.
Yes, it is less of an irritant due to the min 9 micron size Synthex fiber
has same feature.
When you say stiffness, I assume you are comparing to carbon? The way O&P
laminates carbon composites our devices end up very resin heavy, stiff and
brittle. Really too ridged.
Basalt, is more in line with E-Glass and Synthex fiber falls in the middle
of E-Glass and Carbon. The goal with these materials is to NOT create an
overly ridged socket like carbon, but something that performs like a PP/CP
plastic socket with the toughness of a composite. These are more
comfortable for the patient and perform well. They will appear less ridged
than carbon but that is a good thing!
I haven’t used, but I have been in many facilities that utilize it. It does
what Coyote claims
I have tried several laminations with varying results. My main issue was
the weight of the braid which clearly is not a material issue. However, the
fibres did seem to absorb lots of resin yet not 'pack down' like carbon
does so well, creating in my opinion a heavier than necessary socket wall.
On a couple of laminations where I removed more resin the fibres became
starved and the edges didn't finish well. I've told my my supplier that I'm
keen to keep investigating but I want a finer braid and also unidirectional
tapes. In terms of irritation it did seem to be better, but hard to say as
I use lots of PPE when using carbon to avoid such issues.
Could you please post your responses as I'd be very interested to hear of
others' experiences.
Is that you calling out from the holy land!? I would like to be in touch
with you. please confirm my assumptions. Thanks & all the best!
summary
it is somewhat less irritating. it is more flexible than carbon but not
significantly weaker one might use more layers to compensate for lack of
rigidity, but that might increase weight
thanks to all the respondents
Seth Sheckartze CPO
On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 4:22 PM, seth sheckartze < <Email Address Redacted> >
wrote:
> I'm looking into basalt fibers has any one used them is it true there is
> no irritation as advertised by coyote design and how does it compare in
> regards to weight and stiffness
> Thanks
> Seth Sheckartze CPO
>
Citation
seth sheckartze, “Re: Carbon fiber alternatives,” Digital Resource Foundation for Orthotics and Prosthetics, accessed November 23, 2024, https://library.drfop.org/items/show/236923.
