RESPONSES:symes prosthesis, silicone advise
Wilder La Fond
Description
Collection
Title:
RESPONSES:symes prosthesis, silicone advise
Creator:
Wilder La Fond
Text:
01.02.00
I appreciate everyone who responded to my questions. I'm certain the next
time I'm given the opportunity, I'll have a much better time of it. I'm
still receiving a few late responses, but it seems most are in. Here they
are...
Wilder K. La Fond
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I have sucessfully fabricated probably 200 of
these. It's easier to explain over the phone, although you seem to have
gotten
the correct techniques. Sometimes it's practice, sometimes it's just the
order..
Hal Wolgamott bs,cp,lp, faaop
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hello Wilder: Way back when, in the dark ages, when I used to do my own
fabricating I did several silicone/polyester (no acrylics/epoxies available)
laminations for Symes, BK's and bilateral HD's and hemicorpectomies. My
experiences are:
...the lay-up was the same, 4 nylons (NO dacron) covered with pva and a
second pva to get the resin to the area needed. Taping or strings to act as
a dam only work towards the patella and not A-P or towards the
distal.(Remember the impression is inverted) You need a thick enough resin
so it does not flow like an acrylic. Vacuum to be adjusted to minimal amount
needed to keep air out and not move silicone resins. I also brought the
resin to within 1/4-1/2 of final line desired and as the resin was starting
to cure, impregnated to the final lines. This is tricky, and do not get
distracted while waiting as the will not help the final desired results.
(Spoken from experience)
I would suggest another layer or two of nylon when doing the acrylic
lamination. It always seemed to lessen the amount of starved areas between
the two materials and it trimmed very easily from the silicone.
I would suggest speaking with IPOS as they have the last silicone that I used
in laminations (late 80's) that seemed very easy to use.
If you have knowledge of a Mr.. Dale Barry, CP(c) who used to work for IPOS,
and last I heard with Novacare, contact him. His technical knowledge was far
above anyone else I have ever spoke with and he both saved me a ton of money
and made me a ton of money with his techniques!! (If you find him, tell him
he is short and ugly from me)
Good Luck, Ed Roman, CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wilder,
Do the lamination with the acrylic, polyester, etc., BEFORE you do the
silicone. It is much easier to control the plastic than the silicone.
Set the resin off HOT and use tape and string to help control the flow.
We have been doing it this way for years and are very satisfied with the
results. BTW, a little vacuum control works wonders !!
Lotsa' luck,
E. Reed Coleman, LPO, CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Call OTTO BOCK or go there sometime. They have the best Lab. Courses of
anyone I know.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ONE WAY TO CONTROL MIGRATION OF SILICONE RESIN IS TO PUT A THIXOTROPIC AGENT
IN THE RESINS WHICK CAN MAKE FAIRLY VISCOUS AND THUS GIVE YOU CONTROL. TO
GET INFORMATION YOU WILL HAVE TO CONSULT YOUR SUPPLIER OF SILICONE RESIN.
I AM NOT A TECHNICIAN BUT I WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN DEVELOPING RUBBERIZED
HIP-DISARTICULATION AND HEMI-PELVECTOMY SOCKET.
WE USED IPCON EVEN AGAINST THE ADVISE OF THEIR SALES STAFF. TO MY AMAZEMENT
WE FOUND THAT SILICONE SOCKETS OUT LASTED EPOXY
HIP DISARTICULATION SOCKETS BY YEARS.
HOPE I HAVE BEEN SOME HELP.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wilder,
the best way to control that is not use vacumm and pull tape tight around
the level that you want the silicone to stop
Steve Smith
Director of technical service
Jim Smith Sales
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
for the jent having trouble wit the expandable blader symes.
Just tape it off & use no vacume at all. You must work it in very well,
but stop at the tape line.
Greg @spinalplus.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We've done well using a rubber o ring fitted snugly over the stockinette,
beneath the PVA bag at the transition point. The round rubber material can
be cut to the right circumference and the ends glued together with super
glue, then rolled into place. (Otto Bock used to teach a similar technique
in its technical courses). We bought ours at some kind of machinery &
equipment supply years ago, now I'm not sure where to get it -- try a
hardware store, equipment catalogs, etc. or maybe call Otto Bock) You need
to use a feeder bag to inject the silicon into the right location. Even so,
it's sometimes a trick to get it to work without some silicon leaching out.
There is some timing and vacuum control involved.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Although it's been sometime since I've been involved in fabricating one of
these, I seem to remember cutting vacuum after reaching the desired level. If
using RTV, I believe it is less vacuum dependent for lamination.
Joel Kempfer CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi Wilder,
Use a hot glue gun to outline where you want the silicone window ( you
only need a thin layer on the outside stockinet)
Any Questions call Ron Brooks CPO @ Shriners in Greenville,SC (864)
255-7951. It was his idea and it works well.
Ed Skewes CPO. SHC Greenville, SC
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear WK
I used to do dozens of them and frequently had some trouble getting the
silicone
to stop at the desired proximal termination level, until i realized that I
realy did not
need to use any vaccum at all for this phase of most laminations.
I just pulled vaccum on the inner bag to ensure a good shape and then dried
the
outside bag well enough to shrink it to fit. if you want to use vaccume to
help it
saturate most of the way you can, but just shut off the outside vaccume when
you
get close to the trim lin. You may get some very minor bubbles on the outside
of
the silicone but these will be hidden by the outer lamination.
I also know William R. Daniels @ independent prosthetic labs has presented a
paper on this subject and I had one published in a tech tip section of the
O&P
business news some year ago that may offer some insight.
Good luck !
Tony Wickman R.T.(O,P)
Freedom fabrication inc.
1800.304.3733
<Email Address Redacted>
WWW. freedomfabrication.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear, WK, LaFond O&P Technician ( <Email Address Redacted> )
Hello ,
I am the Assc.Supervisor of the Prosthetics fab shop at
Fillauer Inc.
Attached is a Word Perfect file of a lamination layup and technic, we use
here at fillauer, for the Expandable bladder Symes that you are asking
about. The attached file also has some technical information also.
Although, I don't think that the attached file will anwser all your
questions, so fill free to call me at the office anytime. ( 1-800-251-6398
EXT.240) I will be more then glad to go over with you any technical aspects
of the Expandable bladder symes in the way we fabricate it here at Fillauer
Inc.
Martin Rightmire
Fillauer Inc.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear LaFond,
We used to do this type of prosthesis quite often at Shriners. Please give
me a call to discuss...I am afraid it will be a novel if I try to write it
out. I can be reached at my office (320)252-9211.
Happy holidays,
Lisa Schoonmaker,CPO
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi,
Regarding the Expandable Symes, I usually use thread tied very tightly along
with a stretch tape adjacent to the thread, I generally have little to no
bleeding of the silicone. Hope this helps. I also only use three layers of
nylon stockinette for the initial wall/liner.
Ryan Gatlin, BOCP
Georgia Prosthetics
912-272-6522
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I appreciate everyone who responded to my questions. I'm certain the next
time I'm given the opportunity, I'll have a much better time of it. I'm
still receiving a few late responses, but it seems most are in. Here they
are...
Wilder K. La Fond
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I have sucessfully fabricated probably 200 of
these. It's easier to explain over the phone, although you seem to have
gotten
the correct techniques. Sometimes it's practice, sometimes it's just the
order..
Hal Wolgamott bs,cp,lp, faaop
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hello Wilder: Way back when, in the dark ages, when I used to do my own
fabricating I did several silicone/polyester (no acrylics/epoxies available)
laminations for Symes, BK's and bilateral HD's and hemicorpectomies. My
experiences are:
...the lay-up was the same, 4 nylons (NO dacron) covered with pva and a
second pva to get the resin to the area needed. Taping or strings to act as
a dam only work towards the patella and not A-P or towards the
distal.(Remember the impression is inverted) You need a thick enough resin
so it does not flow like an acrylic. Vacuum to be adjusted to minimal amount
needed to keep air out and not move silicone resins. I also brought the
resin to within 1/4-1/2 of final line desired and as the resin was starting
to cure, impregnated to the final lines. This is tricky, and do not get
distracted while waiting as the will not help the final desired results.
(Spoken from experience)
I would suggest another layer or two of nylon when doing the acrylic
lamination. It always seemed to lessen the amount of starved areas between
the two materials and it trimmed very easily from the silicone.
I would suggest speaking with IPOS as they have the last silicone that I used
in laminations (late 80's) that seemed very easy to use.
If you have knowledge of a Mr.. Dale Barry, CP(c) who used to work for IPOS,
and last I heard with Novacare, contact him. His technical knowledge was far
above anyone else I have ever spoke with and he both saved me a ton of money
and made me a ton of money with his techniques!! (If you find him, tell him
he is short and ugly from me)
Good Luck, Ed Roman, CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wilder,
Do the lamination with the acrylic, polyester, etc., BEFORE you do the
silicone. It is much easier to control the plastic than the silicone.
Set the resin off HOT and use tape and string to help control the flow.
We have been doing it this way for years and are very satisfied with the
results. BTW, a little vacuum control works wonders !!
Lotsa' luck,
E. Reed Coleman, LPO, CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Call OTTO BOCK or go there sometime. They have the best Lab. Courses of
anyone I know.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ONE WAY TO CONTROL MIGRATION OF SILICONE RESIN IS TO PUT A THIXOTROPIC AGENT
IN THE RESINS WHICK CAN MAKE FAIRLY VISCOUS AND THUS GIVE YOU CONTROL. TO
GET INFORMATION YOU WILL HAVE TO CONSULT YOUR SUPPLIER OF SILICONE RESIN.
I AM NOT A TECHNICIAN BUT I WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN DEVELOPING RUBBERIZED
HIP-DISARTICULATION AND HEMI-PELVECTOMY SOCKET.
WE USED IPCON EVEN AGAINST THE ADVISE OF THEIR SALES STAFF. TO MY AMAZEMENT
WE FOUND THAT SILICONE SOCKETS OUT LASTED EPOXY
HIP DISARTICULATION SOCKETS BY YEARS.
HOPE I HAVE BEEN SOME HELP.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wilder,
the best way to control that is not use vacumm and pull tape tight around
the level that you want the silicone to stop
Steve Smith
Director of technical service
Jim Smith Sales
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
for the jent having trouble wit the expandable blader symes.
Just tape it off & use no vacume at all. You must work it in very well,
but stop at the tape line.
Greg @spinalplus.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We've done well using a rubber o ring fitted snugly over the stockinette,
beneath the PVA bag at the transition point. The round rubber material can
be cut to the right circumference and the ends glued together with super
glue, then rolled into place. (Otto Bock used to teach a similar technique
in its technical courses). We bought ours at some kind of machinery &
equipment supply years ago, now I'm not sure where to get it -- try a
hardware store, equipment catalogs, etc. or maybe call Otto Bock) You need
to use a feeder bag to inject the silicon into the right location. Even so,
it's sometimes a trick to get it to work without some silicon leaching out.
There is some timing and vacuum control involved.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Although it's been sometime since I've been involved in fabricating one of
these, I seem to remember cutting vacuum after reaching the desired level. If
using RTV, I believe it is less vacuum dependent for lamination.
Joel Kempfer CP
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi Wilder,
Use a hot glue gun to outline where you want the silicone window ( you
only need a thin layer on the outside stockinet)
Any Questions call Ron Brooks CPO @ Shriners in Greenville,SC (864)
255-7951. It was his idea and it works well.
Ed Skewes CPO. SHC Greenville, SC
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear WK
I used to do dozens of them and frequently had some trouble getting the
silicone
to stop at the desired proximal termination level, until i realized that I
realy did not
need to use any vaccum at all for this phase of most laminations.
I just pulled vaccum on the inner bag to ensure a good shape and then dried
the
outside bag well enough to shrink it to fit. if you want to use vaccume to
help it
saturate most of the way you can, but just shut off the outside vaccume when
you
get close to the trim lin. You may get some very minor bubbles on the outside
of
the silicone but these will be hidden by the outer lamination.
I also know William R. Daniels @ independent prosthetic labs has presented a
paper on this subject and I had one published in a tech tip section of the
O&P
business news some year ago that may offer some insight.
Good luck !
Tony Wickman R.T.(O,P)
Freedom fabrication inc.
1800.304.3733
<Email Address Redacted>
WWW. freedomfabrication.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear, WK, LaFond O&P Technician ( <Email Address Redacted> )
Hello ,
I am the Assc.Supervisor of the Prosthetics fab shop at
Fillauer Inc.
Attached is a Word Perfect file of a lamination layup and technic, we use
here at fillauer, for the Expandable bladder Symes that you are asking
about. The attached file also has some technical information also.
Although, I don't think that the attached file will anwser all your
questions, so fill free to call me at the office anytime. ( 1-800-251-6398
EXT.240) I will be more then glad to go over with you any technical aspects
of the Expandable bladder symes in the way we fabricate it here at Fillauer
Inc.
Martin Rightmire
Fillauer Inc.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dear LaFond,
We used to do this type of prosthesis quite often at Shriners. Please give
me a call to discuss...I am afraid it will be a novel if I try to write it
out. I can be reached at my office (320)252-9211.
Happy holidays,
Lisa Schoonmaker,CPO
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hi,
Regarding the Expandable Symes, I usually use thread tied very tightly along
with a stretch tape adjacent to the thread, I generally have little to no
bleeding of the silicone. Hope this helps. I also only use three layers of
nylon stockinette for the initial wall/liner.
Ryan Gatlin, BOCP
Georgia Prosthetics
912-272-6522
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Citation
Wilder La Fond, “RESPONSES:symes prosthesis, silicone advise,” Digital Resource Foundation for Orthotics and Prosthetics, accessed November 16, 2024, https://library.drfop.org/items/show/213531.
